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D. Sebastian
(Scourge of NH)
Joined: 21 Jan 2002
Posts: 2783
Location: VDK, East
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 Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:43 pm Post subject: big crests - late Roman |
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| Cullyn wrote: | A friend pointed this out to me in the Byzantine Armies
886 -1118 book.
primary source an ivory casket in the troyes cathedral
dating to the 11th century. The image is of two llamelar wearing horsemen on a lion hunt but take a look at the helmet plume..... what do you guys think.
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Yep - got that one too.
I believe the box was made 9-12th Cent, but the depictions are from much earlier (Classical) kits, as was prevelant in much Roman Art.
My book in packed up, so I can't dig it out to see right now.I also have not seen any other depictions of that helm or plume in the 9-12th Cent (dosen't mean thery're not there - just that I haven't seen 'em).
I did dig up some pics of the "cru-cut" plume on a ridge helm:
At the moment I can't place the time period it would have been used, but I believe its ~6th Cent.
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AB
(White Mountan Armoury)
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 537
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| Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:34 am Post subject: |
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There are many infantry and cav ridge refrences out there, more than you would think, the crested helm in the box relief may be classicly inspired, but could be accurete as well. There are examples with very tall steel ridges, the Dura helms construction points twards a topknot.
A ridge with raised "eyes" or cresents or crosses would look right at home with a tall nose to nape style crest. 2 of my freetime projects are sca versions of the dura, and of what im starting to think of as an officers helemt with a tall "nose to nape" style crest.
I have alot of can helm info, extant finds ect etc, if people would like any of that info i can provide it.
I hope to have an affordable infantry version available soon.
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D. Sebastian
(Scourge of NH)
Joined: 21 Jan 2002
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Location: VDK, East
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| Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:22 am Post subject: |
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Magnus,
Many of our kinsmen are looking for justification for large plumes on 7-12th cent kits. ANY assistance you can provide would be greatly appreciated!!
I'd love to see your progress on the Dura project.
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Brennan
Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| D. Sebastian wrote: | Magnus,
Many of our kinsmen are looking for justification for large plumes on 7-12th cent kits. ANY assistance you can provide would be greatly appreciated!!
I'd love to see your progress on the Dura project. |
Actually, my period is early 6th century. So, if there's something different that's appropriate, please let me know. It's not so much that I'm looking to proved that what I have now would work, so much as not knowing where to look for the answers. |
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D. Sebastian
(Scourge of NH)
Joined: 21 Jan 2002
Posts: 2783
Location: VDK, East
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| Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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Looking at the coffer, I don't see stirrups, that leads me to believe earlier period.
I'd love to see evidence of mid-later period full plumes!
I've always loved the look.
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Alaric
Joined: 29 Mar 2003
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:11 am Post subject: Stirrups |
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| D. Sebastian wrote: | Looking at the coffer, I don't see stirrups, that leads me to believe earlier period.
I'd love to see evidence of mid-later period full plumes!
I've always loved the look.
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Your comment made me wonder what this history of Stirrups was. Here's what I found.
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The stirrup was invented surprisingly late in history, considering that horses were used for bareback riding and to pull carts or war chariots since the fourth millennium BC. The true stirrup was apparently invented in northern China in the first few centuries CE, although a simple loop through which the rider placed his big toe was already to be seen in India either by 4th century BCE (Desmond Morris, Horse Watching1998), or the 2nd century BCE. [1]
It was invented at first as a single mounting stirrup only used in gaining the saddle; the first dependable representation of a rider with paired stirrups is in a Jin tomb of about 322 CE. The stirrup was spread throughout Eurasia by the great horsemen of the central Asian steppes. It is uncertain when it was first adopted by the nomads the first attested use is by the Alans. Some historians believe the Huns must have used them to enable their conquests.
Vendel Age stirrup from Uppland, Sweden
Enlarge
Vendel Age stirrup from Uppland, Sweden
Stirrups reached Sweden in the 6th century, leading to the establishment of mounted Thegns during the Swedish Vendel Age. From this period have been found rich graves of mounted elite warriors, which include stirrups [2]. The importance of the horse during this time is reflected in the later Norse sagas, where the 6th century Swedish king Adils is said to have been a great lover of horses and to have had the best horses of his days. Interestingly, all accounts of this king's warfare describe him as fighting on horseback, although the later Vikings never or rarely did so. To add a 6th century source, Jordanes claimed that the Swedes had the best horses beside the Thuringians, reflecting the importance of the horse during this time (see also the Battle on the Ice).
Stirrups were first indirectly documented in Central Europe during the reign of Charles Martel in the 8th century, when verbs scandere and descendere among the Franks replace verbs denoting "leaping" upon a horse. A pair of stirrups have been found in an 8th century burial in Holiare, Slovakia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirrups#History
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This is also pretty good, but a little to long to quote
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/sloan.html
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AB
(White Mountan Armoury)
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 537
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Stirrups i believe were know to the Sarmations and to other horse warrior cultures for along time befor they made it west, or atleast this is how i understand it.
2000 sarmation cav units and their family were stationed in Britton in the 4th or possibly 5th century (im pulling this from a fading memory)
Ive always had the romantic notion that these Sarmations were the foundation of the Authurain Cav that came so many yearss later.
It is the Sarmations who are the source for the Draco windsock banner we tie to Britton and Authurian legend.
Ive been a bit busy to dig up the promised info, but i will make an effort to find it, much of my material is in disarray and im pulling alot of this from my ass so to speak.
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Culann
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Posts: 93
Location: East
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Re-reading the text by that image , they believe the lack of stirrups is a stylistic choice. As an Illustrator I can agree, artist often remove items that they may seem as "extra" especially in a carving. I could be wrong.
I also have to diagree about the coffer being classical. while it may be contain a classical theme the body armor on the figures appears to be llamelar something not found n classical carvings. classical carvings generally ( I say generally as I have not found one that dosent, but it doesnt mean its not out there) depict muscle cuirass' and less often the lorica hamata chain mail shirts.
Also looking for the crests for the 6th not 9-12th
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AB
(White Mountan Armoury)
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 537
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:32 am Post subject: |
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One thing about that helmet Matty is that its the only refrence ive ever seen to a crest on an infantry helm. Even in some of the begger articles about ridge helms there is no nention of that type of crest, if you new where that reconstruction came from you might be able to request information on it.
As for the cuirasse i would bet they are wearing tied and wired scale.
Looks just like lamella, even in the hole placement. I know Dura yielded up alot of it, even some in leather i think, id need to check that though.
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